-- Num ---- Username ---- Category ------------- Posted -- Expires |
|58245| STU_JAJOHNSO | RELIGION             | 06/14/93 | 06/25/93 |
--------------------------------------------------------------------
| Description: Reply to 58221: Reply to 58213: Reply to 5820         
=====================================================================

[DELETION]
 
>
>Prove it.  I can prove dinosaurs walked the face of the earth O'
>course, you have to allow basic axioms, or I can't even prove that
>you exist, much less dinosaurs) whereas you have not a shred of
>evidence save a book written a couple thousand years ago, by
>superstitious and (by our standards) highly ignorant people and
>several times translated to boot.  I have never, and I do not now
>allow my ignorance to be part of your proof.  Just because I do not

[DELETION]
 
Paul, one point in my post was not to get hung up on sideline issues.
I am a creationist, and there is little need to discuss evolution with
me beyond that. The folks who "wrote" the Bible weren't ignorant.
Folks in the Bible had great insight, wisdom, and faith.  Faith isn't
ignorance Paul.  It may seem ignorant to you, and the message of the
cross may seem foolish to you, but that is because you don't believe.
But faith is the key to the sustaining power of the Holy Spirit and
the message of the cross is the only true hope.
 
>>All of us were created with a purpose,
>
>And let us discuss that.  I was created with a purpose.  Since God
>is omniscient (according to you) that means he knows that when I
>die, I will go to
 
...who knows where you may go, but God alone?  How do you know that
you will never change?  You don't.  If one doesn't choose Jesus Christ,
one chooses separation from God.  If one chooses Jesus Christ, he or
she has found the goal of God's upward call to strive for and the key
to forgiveness, freedom, redemption, renewal, and eternal life.
 
[Deletion]
 
>>will, and spirit....in God's image.  God loves us so
>>much that He wants to include us in His plan;
>
>If his plan includes me roasting in hell forever, I'd rather not be
>involved.
 
That is not in His plan.  Read II Peter 3:9 from my post the other day.
One can break God's will and in doing so, sin.  One can choose not to
be part of God's plan of being saved by the blood of Jesus Christ and
proclaiming the Gospel unto the world and striving in faith.
 
>Of course, I don't have the choice not be involved, do I?  That's to
>say I didn't choose to be born here, given my rathers, I'd rather
>not have been born, if my ultimate fate is eternal pain.
>
 
Paul, your ultimate fate doesn't have to be eternal pain.
 
>>Have you considered Jesus Christ, with a heart that is willing to
>>change?
>
>Again, if I were not willing to learn, I would not talk on this
>board at all.
 
A heart willing to change is not the same as a mind willing to learn.
Certainly if your heart does change, you will grow spiritually in a
non-stop learning process which does include the mind, but one must
not put faith in facts.  One must simply turn to Jesus, confess their
sins, and repent.  The facts will come as one learns and grows in
Christ.
 
>Heck, I'd be rather pleased if you could convert me.  It's rather
>comforting, I think to know that one's ultimate fate is something
>other than the oblivion. But I'd be untrue to myself if I were to
>just accept your god because I'm basically a good person, and your
>god strikes me as one evil entity, provided he exist, which I don't
>grant.  I would be more true to myself if I were to worship myself,
>for I know that, without a doubt I exist, and since I am the
>only thing that I am 100% sure exist, I could as well be God as
>anything else.
>Ergo, I should worship myself.
>
 
It takes more than being good to save a person.  Good works don't
save you.
 
>>He will meet you where you are.  All you have to do is
>>accept His love and accept Him as both Lord and Savior.  The choice
>>is yours.
>>
>
>It is not.  It never was.  According to you I was created by God.
>When God did so, he knew how I would feel.  He made this world in a
>way that would support my views, not yours.  He created me with an
>intelligence that causes me to draw the conclusions that I have
>drawn.  It is not a matter of choice that I don't believe in your
>God.  Your God made me in such a way that I wouldn't believe in him
>(again, granting that your God made me, which I am only doing
>for argument's sake).  Ergo, your God made the decision for me that
>I would not ever believe in God and therefore, according to you,
>roast in hell.
>
 
God created you with a spirit--a heart.  God doesn't make our
decisions for us.  If He did, we would never do stupid things or bad
things (sin), and I wouldn't have had to change my major :) We are
not robots responding to a divine remote control.  We are individuals
created in God's image.  We make our own decisions.  Paul, again, I
say this:  I cannot say whether you are going to hell or not.  I
cannot say whether you will go to heaven or not.  All I can say is
that Jesus is the only way and that I hope for a change and I hope all
who do not know Him will choose Him before it's too late.
 
[Deletion]
 
>>Again, are you on the Lord's side?  The choice is yours.
>>
>
>No.  I am on my side.  If that coincides with the Lord's side (as
>said in Vatacin (sp?) II) then that's fine by me.  I rather like
>that.  If it is strictly the way you say then a'roasting I will go,
>a'roasting I will go, hi-ho the dairy-o a'roasting I will go...
>Anyone got a few billion cases of Marshmellows?
>
>
>tuna
 
I'm sorry to hear that, but for now you have chosen your path.
All I can do is hope for you...and I'll never give up hope for you.
We will eventually go our separate ways from JMU, but for all who do
not believe, I will have hope for you and I will pray for you.
Consider the cost.
 
Beacon Deacon

-- Num ---- Username ---- Category ------------- Posted -- Expires 
| 58256 | STU_JAJOHNSO | RELIGION             | 06/15/93 | 06/28/93 | 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
| Description: Jesus bridges the gap of sin                         
=====================================================================

[Deletion]
>
>>Folks in the Bible had
>>great insight, wisdom, and faith.  Faith isn't ignorance Paul.
>
>Ah, you thought I was saying that because they had faith they were
>ignorant. My bust.  But I'll say that too.  If you have complete
> unquestioning faith,then you must turn off your upper brain.  Ever
> wonder why you see bumper
 
Paul, I think there is a confusion between spirit and mind.  I
didn't have all the facts when I first became a Christian.  I put my
heart--my spirit--into the matter.  Then, as I changed and grew
spiritually, my spirit slowly but surely grew to a point to overcome
the flesh.  Then, the facts came...  First, I believed, then I saw
the facts.  When one feels the Holy Spirit literally tug at the heart,
there are no facts that are as evident as that.
 
>stickers that read "question authority?"  It is, I think, because if
>you allow any being, or group of beings unquestioned power over you,
>you'll eventually end up w/ the worst despot possible.  Hey, power
>corrupts, and my favorite corrolary to that is "absolute power
>corrupts, absolutely."  The point to all of this is if I question
>God, I shouldn't be condemned to hell.  If I am thusly
 
Questioning God and rejecting God are two totally different things.
 
>condemned because God doesn't provide evidence of his own existance,
>then I put
 
Although you may disagree, I have found evidence for His existence--
primarily, He changed my life.  The other day, I found a tape from
the past.  I played it and the person on the tape had my voice, but
that person was not me.  The person on the tape was who I used to be
....a hateful, vengeful, and depressed young man.  I also found
writings from that period of my life.  I couldn't believe what I read
when I looked through them.  I've shown friends this diary of my old
self, and I am a total flip-flop from what I was.  I will speak of
the old self later in this post.  But the biggest evidence of God's
existence is that He changed my life.  No other person, no other
service could help me. It wasn't until I turned to Jesus Christ that
I slowly began to change.

[Deletion]
 
>
>Look, I understand sacifice, heck, the thought to hesitate wouldn't
>enter my mind to put my life on the line to save someone else from
>death, and I'm talking physical death, not something which is much,
>much worse.  What I question, though, is why it had to happen in the
>first place.  Why did God arbitrarily decide that he'd have to have
>his only begotten boy cruxified.  I mean, if you don't think about
>it at all, it makes good PR "Hey, didja hear what God did, he had
>his only begotten son killed to pay a debt that he himself set."  O'
>course, if you think about it for, oh, 4 or 5 femtoseconds, it
>doesn't seem like a REAL smart thing to do, because a response to
>the above quote could be "But wait, if God arbitrarily set the
>price, then God paid it himself, then we're basically where we were
>before God set the price."
>
 
Paul...here are some of the main reasons why Christ had to die for us.
Jesus was God incarnate.  He was the bridge between man and God. He
bridged the gap of sin that separated man from God.  Through Jesus,
it was proven that the spirit can overcome the flesh.  Sin had to be
put to death.  Jesus Christ became sin on the cross and thus, sin was
crucified.  This can be a reality to those who choose to take their
sins to the cross...that means to accept what Jesus did and accept
Him as both Lord and Savior.  Another reason relates to the old self.
My old self and the old self of many others had to be crucified.  The
persona I once was is dead because I gave my life to Jesus.
 
When the old self is killed, the alcoholic becomes sober, the foul
mouth gives sermons, the adulterer becomes pure and faithful, the
unbeliever believes, the unsaved becomes saved, the depressed rejoice,
the hopeless gain hope, and so on.  Sin and the old self had to be
crucified so that the option would be open for humanity to cast their
sins and old selves--their burdens--upon Jesus and in doing so become
new creations in Christ Jesus.
 
>Which brings me to another point.  Just what happend to people who
>croaked BEFORE Christ was wasted?  Did they "go to hell, do not pass
>go, do not collect

In the New Testament, it says that Abraham was justified by faith.
Obviously, Abe was eventually made aware of Jesus after he died.
But since Abraham, Christ has come into the world and through Him,
sins past, present, and future can be crucified by simply believing
in Him.
 
[Deletion]
 
>>But faith is the key to the sustaining power of
>>the Holy Spirit and the message of the cross is the only true hope.
>>
>
>And blindly believing in something is the only way to have continued
>ignorance of the very thing you believe in.
>
 
I walk by faith not by sight.
 
[Deletion]
 
>Yet again, I remind you of the convention I selected for arguments
>sake.  That convention being that while I type this post, I kick
>over my tea, which hits my power strip, I do the 60cycle jig for a
>few seconds, and become a crispy critter.
>
>Even disallowing that convention, I won't say that it's impossible
>that I'll never become religious, but then I won't say that it's
>impossible that my truck will do 350 mph.  I will say that the
>probability of either occurance is so small as to be discounted.
>
 
But there is that possibility...
 
 
>>If one doesn't choose Jesus Christ, one chooses
>>separation from God.  If one chooses Jesus Christ, he or she has
>>found the goal of God's upward call to strive for and the key to
>>forgiveness, freedom, redemption, renewal, and eternal life.
>>
>
>Again, I do not CHOOSE Jesus Christ in the same manner I do not
>CHOOSE to go to hell.  CHOOSING implies believed existance, where I
>do not have such a belief.
>
>Ergo, I am not choosing Jesus Christ, but I am not shunning Jesus
>Christ either.  Much in the same manner I do not choose Santa
>Claus, but neither do I shun him.  I merely accept the fact that he
>is the work of some highly creative and superstitious minds.
>
 
If one is not for Jesus Christ, one is against Jesus Christ.
 
[Deletion]
 
>
>Uno momento.  Following is a hypothetical syllogism:
>
>God is omniscient
>all omniscient beings know everything, for all times
>when God created me, he KNEW I was going to hell.
>
>Well, ok, it's not a very good hypothetical syllogism, but it's
>basically correct.  So, God created me with the knowledge that "a
>'roastin' I will go."
>Therefore, God PLANNED for me to roast in hell.  Now, just where
>does that little packet of logic fall to shambles?
>
 
Paul, how do you know what God knows about your existence after
earth?  With that possibility of changing, no matter how small,
in size, how do you know that you will not change?  You've already
said that there is that very small chance. If it is that small,
well the Holy Spirit can work against the odds no matter their size.
 
[Deletion]
 
>>Paul, your ultimate fate doesn't have to be eternal pain.
>>
>
>According to you, as surely as I like bud lite, I'll be roasting in
>hell upon cessation of breath.
>
 
Paul, I never said that.  I don't know when your breath will cease
nor do I know the changes that you can go through during your
lifetime.
 
>>>>Have you considered Jesus Christ, with a heart that is
>>>>willing to change?
>>>
>>>Again, if I were not willing to learn, I would not talk on this
>>>board at all.
>
>>
>>A heart willing to change is not the same as a mind willing to
>>learn.
>
>I would say that it's possible that I fit into the former catagory,
>but you
>surely fit into the latter.  No disrespect intended, but as I said
>earlier, if
>you do not question something, you are ignorant of it, and you are
>unwilling to
>learn more.
>
 
Paul, there are sometimes where I wonder why God did in the Bible
what He did and there are sometimes where I wonder how much worse
this planet can get. Often, I find out why God did/does what he
did/does and in doing so, I learn.
 
>>Certainly if your heart does change, you will grow spiritually in a
>>non-stop learning process which does include the mind, but one must
>>not put faith in facts.
>
>Listen to yourself, will you?  "...one must not put faith in facts."
>Then just what the heck is the use of going to JMU?  Why bother
>learning anything at all?
>
 
I came to JMU to learn and with the new knowledge I gain, to use it
to the furthering of God's kingdom here on earth.
 
>I mean in the end, it just won't matter will it?  So why not just
>become a

In the end, it may matter because through what I learn here at JMU
and elsewhere, I may be able to apply that knowledge alongside my
faith to reach someone.  If a person is reached by a Christian,
and that person changes, then it will definitely make a difference
for that person in the end.
 
>missionary and try to save some poor miscreant (such as myself) as a
>full time job?  Heck, I don't believe in God, and I myself sometimes
>wonder why go through all the hassle for something so etheral as
>monetary gain (let's face it folks, that's what college is all
>about).  But I have an answer I'm happy with (that I don't feel like
>wasting your time, but it doesn't have to do w/ god, and, in fact,
>makes little sense if you are so into god).  You, on the other
>hand, seem to think that God is the coolest thing there is, so you
>don't really have much of a reason to go to school do you?
>
 
I think that God is the most awesome being there is and He is!  That
doesn't eliminate my reason to go to school here.  Through being at
this school, I have been able to learn things and apply them
alongside my faith. Learning about computers is knowledge I have
gained here at JMU....knowledge that is applicable to anything one
does just about---even a church.  I have all the reason to go to
school.  There is a lot of knowledge that I have gained and there
is a lot of knowledge that I have used in finding a common ground
with people.  I just took a May Session class and now, I know about
Islam, although I disagree with it.  After learning about Islam, I
know more reasons why I disagree with it.  Also, I can identify with
Muslim neighbors because I have some idea of where they are coming
from.
 
[Deletion]
 
>>It takes more than being good to save a person.  Good works don't
>>save you.
>
>Ah yes, but neither do evil works destroy one.  So it's not a matter
>of good or evil, rather, it is a matter of blindly believing
>something under the threat of eternal torture.  Ghengis Khan wasn't
>that big a jerk, he just killed people outright.
>
 
Works don't save...no kind of works save.
 
>>>>He will meet you where you are.  All you have to do is
>>>>accept His love and accept Him as both Lord and Savior.  The
>>>>choice is yours.
>>>>
>>>
>>>It is not.  It never was.  According to you I was created by God.
>>>When God di
>>>so, he knew how I would feel.  He made this world in a way that
>>>would support
>>>my views, not yours.  He created me with an intelligence that
>>>causes me to
>>>draw the conclusions that I have drawn.  It is not a matter of
>>>choice that I
>>>don't believe in your God.  Your God made me in such a way that I
>>>wouldn't
>>>believe in him (again, granting that your God made me, which I am
>>>only doing
>>>for argument's sake).  Ergo, your God made the decision for me
>>>that I would no
>>>ever believe in God and therefore, according to you, roast in
>>>hell.
>>>
>>
>>God created you with a spirit--a heart.  God doesn't make our
>>decisions for us.
>
>No, no, no, you're completely tossing away what I just said.  He
>created me with the TYPE (as opposed to level) of intelligence that
>I have.  He created the world in such a manner as to discount his
>own works (making the bible imply that the world is 6,000 years old,
>but making it scientifically provable to be around 5 BILLION years
>old) he didn't talk about certain critters that we know existed at
>one point, or why they were snuffed out.  Why?  Because the folk who
>wrote the bible never knew about dinosaurs, why should they?  But
>God sure as

Paul, I don't even know exactly how old the earth is.  The seven days
of creation....were they seven 24-hour days or something else?  (I
personally believe they were 24-hours) There are verses in the Bible
that seem to describe dinosaur-like creatures, but I am not concerned
about how old the earth is nor am I concerned about dinosaurs.  My
concern is about salvation and letting people know of the option they
have through Jesus Christ.
 
>beer should have knew, and he should have known that by not
>mentioning a whole
>passle of things, he was setting himself up for people, quite like
>myself,
>looking at the facts in one hand, looking at the bible in the other,
>then
>tossing the bible in the nearest circular filing unit.
>
>So, your god created circumstance that prove what I say, I have
>proof, you only
>have "but you must believe."  Which one of use would you believe in
>any given
>circumstance?  If you answer you, then I have a bridge I'd like you
>to consider
>purchasing.
>
 
Even some of science is shaky.  Even math isn't perfect.  There are
holes in man's ways.  I have more evidence in the way my life has
changed that supports God than I do with a lot of "science."  I would
believe in the person who tells of the only way to salvation--Jesus
Christ.  Well, I have to decline on purchasing your bridge, Paul, but
I must offer you a bridge....a bridge that is free.  This bridge goes
from mankind, over the canyon of sin, and to God.  This bridge is Jesus
Christ.
 
>>I'm sorry to hear that, but for now you have chosen your path.  All
>>I can do is
>>hope for you...and I'll never give up hope for you.  We will
>>eventually go our
>>separate ways from JMU, but for all who do not believe, I will have
>>hope for
>>you and I will pray for you.  Consider the cost.
>>
>
>That reads really nice, jj, it really does.  But I have my own set
>of morals,
>one of them is that I do not lie to myself, ever.  And that is
>precisely
 
To reject God would be lying to myself.  To reject God would be
against my existence.
 
[Deletion]
 
>
>tuna
 
Read these paragraphs again:
 
Paul...here are some of the main reasons why Christ had to die for us.
Jesus was God incarnate.  He was the bridge between man and God. He
bridged the gap of sin that separated man from God.  Through Jesus, it
was proven that the spirit can overcome the flesh.  Sin had to be put
to death.  Jesus Christ became sin on the cross and thus, sin was
crucified.  This can be a reality to those who choose to take their
sins to the cross...that means to accept what Jesus did and accept Him
as both Lord and Savior.  Another reason relates to the old self.  My
old self and the old self of many others had to be crucified. The
persona I once was is dead because I gave my life to Jesus.
 
When the old self is killed, the alcoholic becomes sober, the foul
mouth gives sermons, the adulterer becomes pure and faithful, the
unbeliever believes, the unsaved becomes saved, the depressed rejoice,
the hopeless gain hope, and so on.  Sin and the old self had to be
crucified so that the option would be open for humanity to cast their
sins and old selves--their burdens--upon Jesus and in doing so become
new creations in Christ Jesus.
 
 
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation;  the old
has gone, the new has come!" II Corinthians 5:17
 
"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ
lives in me.  The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the
Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me." Galatians 2:20
 
"Cast all your anxiety on Him because He cares for you."  I Peter 5:7
 
"The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand
slowness.  He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish,
but everyone to come to repentance."  II Peter 3:9
 
Beacon Deacon