From: VAX2::STU_KEFRANKL "No more merciful beheadings...and call off Christmas!" 3-SEP-1992 16:49:39.75 To: STU_JAJOHNSO CC: Subj: end of the world No I don't have a Bible with me now but I will by this weekend, so I can't look up anything at this moment. But the Bible won't necessarily be that helpful to me only because sometimes I am unsure how to interpret it. That is also why I look to others to teach me. I am looking for enough information on the end of the world that I'll be a veritable expert on it. Any assistance you can give me will be extremely useful whether it be a foundation or whether you "tutor" me on all you know. I notice that you did not say when this all should take place. I know very little, but I do know enough to know that while the Bible doesn't give a date it does give clues. Can you tell me some about this too? Lastly you mentioned an Angel (who seizes the Devil) and referred to everyone else generically. What sort of role do the people play in this? Do they fight? What kind of fighting? Rioting in the streets? Shooting each other? Swords? I know it may not say but I'm trying to get a picture in my mind of this. I know I'm asking and asking for a lot, I also realize you have studies and probably do not have the time to explain this all to me, but whatever time you do take aside for mje I appreciate. Thank you for your post. :) -kathleen ==================================================================== Kathleen, thanks for the message. Biblical interpretation differs from person to person, but you may see that for the most part, the Christians on the bb interpret it just about the same. Prayer is often a powerful key to interpreting the Bible. Also, when I discuss things with brothers and sisters in Christ, then that helps. The reason that I did not give a date is because no man knows exactly when. We have been told by the Word of God about signs/warnings of the end times. That was what Erik Sellin (RaptureMan) talked about. It is very possible that it may happen during our generation, but it is also possible that I will have died when the Lord comes back. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4--Paul writes, "Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief." So, the rapture will be sudden. Only by walking in faith in Jesus Christ and watching can one walk in the light. Basically, the preparation for the rapture is the same as preparing for your eternal home. In other words, true followers of Christ Jesus are those who are prepared, but being prepared doesn't mean knowing the date as man's logic likes to do. Being prepared is knowing where you (your spirit/soul) stands as far as a relationship with God. Now, for the role of people... 1 Corinthians 15:52 says, "In a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 says, "For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Believers will rise to meet the Lord. Notice that the Lord will do the fighting...it is the sword from His mouth that strikes down the nations and it is the fires from Heaven that engulf the evil army. There will be violence among the peoples of the earth. Revelation describes this. I know that you would like a picture, but the wrath of God will surpass even the horridpictures we plant in our minds. Reading Revelation will be a big help when you get your Bible, but Revelation is different from a lot of books. Much of it seems obscure but that is because John is seeing this and some of it obviously goes to the extreme and beyond the human imagination. Some of Revelation is symbolic and figurative, but it is obvious that the end times will be horrible times for those who walk in darkness. I spent 3 months in a Bible study last year and we took a chapter of Revelation a week and discussed it, prayed about it, and analyzed it, so while you read Revelation, I will be happy to answer any questions you may have. I will refer you to the following verses about the end times--so that you can read them when you have a Bible. Some of them, if you want me to mail what they say prior to you having access to a Bible, I can E-mail to you. Here are references from God's Word: I put them in order and tried to give a main topic... Isaiah 13:6-22 Wail, for the Day of the Lord is near... Ezekiel 30:1-3 Wail, Alas for the Day of the Lord! Joel 2:28-3:16 The Day of the Lord and the Nations Judged Amos 5:18-27 The Day of the Lord Obadiah :15-18 The Day, Deliverance, and House of Jacob Zephaniah 1:14-2:3 The Great Day of the Lord Zechariah 14 The Lord comes and reigns Malachi 4 The Day of the Lord Matthew 24 Signs of the End times/Day and hour unknown Matthew 25:31-46 Believers, unbelievers, and Judgement Mark 13 Just like Matthew 24 Luke 21:5-38 Similar to Matthew 24 Romans 1:18-32 The wrath of God and wicked behavior 2 Timothy 3:1-9 Godlessness in the Last Days 2 Peter 3 The last days Jude :3-22 The doom of the godless Revelation The vision given to John by Jesus Christ Note: Chapter 4 is where the END TIMES stuff begins, although the first few chapters shouldn't be overlooked. Before you read Revelation or any of the other verses mentioned above (and there are others), read one of the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. Then, read the verses above in the order they are listed. This way, when you read Revelation, you will realize the prophecy and reasons for occurrences in the book. Reading all of this may be scary ...it disturbs even some Christians. If one is prepared, however, he/she needs not carry that burden. Be careful in reading the verses mentioned. Some of them are the same as others listed. In fact, you may not need to read them all. The list is just to give an order and for quick references. In centuries past, people feared God because of what some of the Last Day verses say. It isn't easy to digest what they say, not because of the validity, but because of the dismal and dreaded descriptions. I feel that God is a God of Love who offers His grace to any who will accept it and that if people follow His will in following His Son Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, then they will be prepared. I admit that I used to fear END TIME prophecy before I became a serious Christian, but now I need not fear the end times for God's grace via Jesus Christ covers me. This is a free gift available to any. I know that END TIMES are intriguing, but the best thing to do is to not dwell on tomorrow, but gain salvation today--to not fear the Apocalypse, but to know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. I will say this and it is not an assumption or a put-down, but a statement to be taken with utmost seriousness: Unless one is a Christian, and a serious Christian, he/she will not get as much from Revelation or end time prophecies. It takes a personal relationship with Christ to be able to take in what all Revelation, and the entire Bible for that matter, has to say. I don't mean to ramble on, but I do not want people to seek what has not yet happened when Jesus awaits for them to seek Him today. This paragraph is just a serious note of caution and advice. I am not trying to scare you. I am trying, by God's grace, to guide you in reading END TIME prophecies. This does not mean that I am trying to force my interpretation on you or tell you how to read the Bible. I am just trying to do what is most spiritually constructive as my heart is guided. Since school is only in one week, I have had plenty of time to type this, so do not worry. I was glad to do it. REMEMBER: Gospel(s), OT prophecy, NT prophecy, finally Revelation. May the Word of God not scare you, but guide you in the path to follow. With a light of hope, James the Beacon Deacon ==================================================================== From: VAX2::STU_KEFRANKL "You're a mean one, Mr. Grinch" 6-SEP-1992 19:17:45.41 To: VAX1::STU_JAJOHNSO CC: Subj: RE: End Times... I am impressed by your wealth of knowledge. I could see from your posts that you knew whereof you spoke, but I was somewhat floored by your response. I am not afraid, so do not be worried that your words or scripture will horrify me. Fear has not entered my mind and I was a bit surprised when you brought it up in your message. I suppose others might become fearful, perhaps even with good reason. I lost my fear of death when I was about 5, I lost my fear of pain last year and if you examine them most other fears are irrational. I don't think that it would be too arrogant to claim that I am not afraid of anything (an unusual position from a woman I am told). I will make notes of the passages that you referred me to and will very likely write you with questions as soon as I have some. After Judgement Day has passed and evil has been banished/destroyed and the good have risen, what becomes of the earth? Will humanity too essentially be destroyed and all that are saved live for eternity in Heaven? And what of the misguided souls, those who did not accept Jesus, but nonetheless led good wholesome lives, are they destined to burn forever or after a certain passage of time can they be saved? (I hope those questions aren't too stupid and ignorant...) Once again thank you, if ever you don't respond I will not take offense, but instead assume that you are too busy with the semester underway. -kathleen :) From: VAX2::STU_KEFRANKL "You're a mean one, Mr. Grinch" 6-SEP-1992 19:21:47.17 To: VAX1::STU_JAJOHNSO CC: Subj: RE: End Times... Oh, I had one more question...you said that Jesus will do the fighting (with a sword from his mouth that strikes the nations), then there will be no army for good? And Christians will not need to fight, but it will in fact already be taken care of for them? I got the impression from someone that there was going to be a battle/dual between one man from good and one from evil. I also believe the name "Electra" come from somewhere else? -kathleen ==================================================================== Hello again, Kathleen. I gave you so many words about fear because many people do fear END TIMES. I didn't mean to assume anything, but to take a precaution. Seriously, though, consider what I said as far as reading--GOSPEL, OT, NT(Revelation last). Revelation is very different from other books in the Bible. WHAT HAPPENS TO THE EARTH? The earth will melt away--disappear--cease to exist. 1 John 2:17 says, " The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever." Psalm 46:6 says, "His(the LORD's) voice resounds; the earth melts." There are other verses, but these two pop into mind. WILL HUMANITY BE DESTROYED AND ALL THE SAVED LIVE FOR ETERNITY IN HEAVEN? Yes. Those who are not believers in Christ Jesus, by being saved-- by accepting Him as LORD and Savior and doing His will, will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. I am not in any position to condemn or judge. I know no one's heart. Only God knows the hearts of men. However, God has revealed through His Word what happens to those who are unbelievers. I know not how hearts can change, but I do know the end result of hearts that will not change for the better in Jesus Christ--again as revealed in God's Word. WHAT ABOUT MISGUIDED SOULS--THOSE WHO DID NOT ACCEPT JESUS...? If one has heard the Good News about Jesus and rejects Him and never in his/her life accepts Him, then that person stands condemned on the Judgement Day, not according to me like I said above, but according to the Word of God. If you want Scripture support, let me know(2 Timothy 2:11-13 and John 3:16-18 come to mind). If one has never heard of Jesus, then that I believe is failure of others to spread the Good News. Good life or not, Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father(read John 14:6). ... I do not believe in Purgatory. It is God's call and His decision. Only He knows perfect justice. JESUS THE CONQUEROR... "The Father's here with me already fighting the battles I can't see. If He goes before me, how could I ever lose?" --WHITECROSS, Christian metal band There is a battle going on everyday between good/evil and spirit/flesh. This is spiritual warfare, but that is a whole entire subject itself. Spiritual warfare involves self-control, not giving in to worldly ways, and standing firm in faith in Christ. This is the only "fighting" we must do, but if we rely on Jesus, no problem. As far as the end times, Jesus Himself will strike down the nations and fires from Heaven will engulf the evil army. With Jesus, there's afterlife insurance. ELECTRA... Electra is a figure of Greek legend. She has nothing to do with the Bible or Christianity or END TIMES. Not to assume anything, but Electra was to avenge the death of her father Agamemnon, and someone may have mistaked the name of Electra's father Agamemnon with the name of the valley where the finale occurs in the end times--Armageddon. There is no correlation with the Greek legend and any aspect of Christianity. Be careful with impressions from others....they can be very deceptive and misleading. __________ Well, I hope that this helps. None of your questions are ignorant or stupid. I am glad you ask. In your first letter to me, you said that you were impressed with my wealth of knowledge. I thank you for complements, but do not be impressed with me, a mere man, a tool of God for it is God who reveals knowledge to me. It is He who has laid verses on my heart and "pops" them into my mind. He is my source of being. I do of course use the intellect that God has given me, but God, the Bible, and Christianity surpass mere human logic. It is sad that so many people reject Him or let our feeble knowledge of science stand in the way of God who Himself created science. If there is anyone to be impressed with, be impressed with God. With a light of hope, James, the Beacon Deacon P.S. What are your beliefs, Kathleen? ==================================================================== From: VAX1::STU_KEFRANKL "oooh, baby - hit my keys..." 7-SEP-1992 22:15:26.53 To: VAX2::STU_JAJOHNSO CC: Subj: religion OKay, you inspired a few more questions in me, if you will indulge me. 1 - What if a person accepts Jesus Christ, accepts that many years ago he died for their sins and now (to simplify things) watches over them protectively from Heaven, but does not accept all that the Bible says or does not embrace the Christian doctrine, what becomes of their souls upon their death? (Always assuming that the person has also led a good life, hasn't kicked any dogs, given to people freely time and help (and perhaps money to charity, etcetera)). 2 - The finale takes place at Armageddon? What sort of finale? I also understand that there is a description of Armageddon, is this true? I suspect this because once a person told me that the field of Armageddon and the Virginia Tech drill field are similar. At one end of the drill field is a chapel at the other a lake with unusually large amounts of sulphur. The field is divided my a certain number of path ways as Armageddon is suppose to be. Armageddon is looked over by a tall mountain or something and in that same location at Tech Burruss stands, which is the tallest building on campus. (My facts may be off here, but I think that this is what I was told.) Actually I do not ask these questions because of my religious beliefs or because of my religious curiousity (though I find this to be fascinating and well wortyh dwelling over - as I said I never studied the Bible much), but I ask because it is "critical" that I learn all I can about End Times as quickly as possible. That is the main reason your help is such a Godsend to me and I am so appreciative of the time and interest you've taken in teaching me. I can't imagine you impossibly difficult it would have been to learn what you have so quickly taught me at Carrier Library on my own. (I'm almost afraid to keep thanking you for fear you will begin to doubt my sincerity, even though I do regard this as a Godsend.) -kathleen ==================================================================== Kathleen, I have a Teacher who has taught me these things....GOD via His Holy Spirit...and this is free to any. If someone is saved--a Christian who accepts Jesus BOTH as LORD and Savior--then he/she will follow what the Bible says. People interpret the Bible differently and there are different doctrines in the Christian Churches, but I believe that different interpretations are a result of the differences in people. I don't believe that all interpretive differences are right, but those that hit the right spot are. For example, I am not Baptist, but I go to BSU. I also go to an inter-denominational group and a United Methodist group. Each group has differences, but being all sincere Christian groups, I can function in each--BECAUSE THE DIFFERENCES AREN'T VERY DIFFERENT. The diversity among Christians is beautiful as long as Christians keep God/Jesus as their focus. In such a focus, there will not be arguments, just slight differences to fill needs of His chosen. Doctrine, if not Biblical, should not be followed. HOWEVER, even some doctrine that is Biblical becomes the target of faith of some. This is sad, but some do thrive on the doctrine(good or bad)instead of on faith in Christ Jesus. Basically, it is God's will that we follow Jesus, and we are to follow Jesus' teachings....so yes, I think that Bible should be followed, but in a way that allows the slight diversity that doesn't cause quarreling among brothers and sisters and in a way that Jesus Christ is the soul focus...for faith in Him is the only way that following all that the Bible says will fall into place. Don't take the Bible as a DO and DON'T book. The Bible has laws upon laws, but the law condemns and faith saves. Christians are to uphold the law and live by faith in Christ --then, they will walk righteous paths. Don't let the Law become your faith. Don't let doctrine be your faith. Jesus is the only ONE worth putting faith in. The Bible is instruction and teaching along with what you learn from the Holy Spirit. Good doctrine will be emphasis on parts of the Bible. God has helped/taught me how to interpret in a way where I can associate with all Christians. I am not always right, but I feel that believers unified and not let anything stand in the way of unification with each other and Christ. If doctrines/interpretations are tools of faith, but not replacements of faith itself and they fall in God's will which is known through prayer and through the Bible, then they should be followed. Interpretation should unify believers, not separate them. This is what I call good diversity and unification. The Christians on the bb are all different people; therefore, we all have different interpretations somewhere or another, but we are unified. We don't argue. There is no need for us to argue. The interpretive differences are usually about things that are very minor for GOD has taught us, and we, therefore, are pretty much agreed --especially on those things that really matter like the Resurrection. I know this seems like an explanation on interpretation, but I needed to let you know what kind of interpretation/doctrine have been laid on my heart as the kind to follow. God unifies Christians. It is our human side and other factors that cause separation--things not of God. FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST--FOLLOWING THE WILL OF GOD as a new being--a Christian is the key that solves. I hope this helps. Sorry for any grammatical mistakes. It is very late, and I am very tired. "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." May you find guidance in your time of need. Jamie Beacon Deacon