-- Num ---- Username ---- Category ------------- Posted -- Expires 
| 58343 | STU_JAJOHNSO | RELIGION             | 06/22/93 | 06/29/93 | 
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| Description: Faith and the Law.  Jesus rose from the dead.
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>
>wow. that's pretty specific. kind of wacky, but specific :)
>
 
It'd be cool if we could really go through Revelation sometime, but
that would be better done in person; however, before Revelation is
read, I think that the Gospels should be read.  After reading the
Gospels, it is easier to understand Revelation.
 
>>Not everyone who claims to be a Christian is a Christian.  People
>>haven't all
>>truly chosen Jesus.  If they would, they would be strive to be
>> Christlike.  You
>>are definitely correct when saying that if His teachings were truly
>>followed by
>>all that the world would be a better place.  If everyone followed
>>the Ten
>>Commandments, then the world would be a better place.  But good
>>works don't
>>save.  Faith in Christ saves.  Laws condemn.  Do and don't is not
>>the Christian
>>way.
>
>Isn't "do unto others..." one of the primary christian ideas? (even
>though Rabbi Hillel thought of it first... :)) Should we abolish all
>law? I don't see
>how that would work.
>
 
"Do unto others as you'd like to do unto you" is part of Christianity.
Even though it is Jewish also doesn't matter.  Christianity has a lot
of Jewish heritage.  I read the Old Testament and the New Testament
both as the Word of God.  Jews and Christians speak of the same God....
the only living God....Yahweh/Ellohim/El Shaddai/Jehova.  "Do unto
others..." relates to what Jesus said about loving your neighbor as
yourself.  Abolish the law?  No, absolutely not.  Christians don't
ignore the law.  Christians are called to uphold the law.  Let me
refer you to Romans 3:9-31 which explains a lot of what I am trying
to say.  Paul also quotes Psalms in this excerpt.  Read also Galatians
3:1-25 which helps explain the Christian view of the law.  Paul quotes
Deuteronomy in this excerpt.  Ephesians 2:1-10 doesn't quite confront
the law as the other two excerpts, but it does confront being saved by
faith. Finally, to save the best for last, Jesus said in Matthew
5:17-20 the following:  "Do not think that I have come to abolish the
Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill
them.  I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not
the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means
disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.  Anyone who
breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to
do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but
whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in
the kingdom of heaven.  For I tell you that unless you righteousness
surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will
certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
 
These excerpts might better explain how I approach the law.  I strive
to follow the law, but not in a do and don't way.  I rely on faith in
Christ to do what is right.  Christians rely on faith to be saved.  I
don't want to make Christianity a do and don't religion.  Christianity
is a lifestyle where one strives for righteousness by striving to be
Christlike.  In doing so, one will follow the law.  The law makes us
aware of sin.  Faith in Christ forgives the sin.
 
Read those excerpts; they'll clarify what I am trying to say.
 
>> The Christian way is to strive to be Christlike and in doing so
>>striving
>>to live righteously and upholding the law.  Here is why there has
>>been so much
>>time since Biblical times:  God is patient and waiting for people
>>to choose.
>
>maybe he is waiting for people worshiping a dead man and to get back
>on a
>proper moral track without depending on a third party to wash away
>sin. (I
>really apologize for this statement, it's pretty snide and quite
>rude but i
>needed to say something of the sort and i didn't feel like sugar
>coating it.
>It's a moot comment anyway coming from me because I don't believe in
>god)
>
 
First, Jesus isn't dead.  True He died, but He rose again.  There is
a reason why I believe.  There are reasons I believe.  BUT, I didn't
initially believe because of facts.  I believed by faith and then the
facts came.  I'd like to discuss why Jesus isn't dead.
 
So, in other words, you are Jewish by blood and not by religion--a
Hebrew atheist?  I don't want to make any assumptions.  Correct me
if I am wrong.
 
Today, we have congregations of people called Churches.  The Church
was founded at Pentecost.  Pentecost is described in ACTS.  The
reason for these Churches was the enthusiasm and the zeal from the
Holy Spirit that the Apostles and other Christians had.  Stephen
was martyred.  Just about all of the original Apostles were martyred
in some way.  They even rejoiced when being flogged for proclaiming
Jesus Christ.  Why would they die for Jesus?  Why would they
enthusiastically proclaim the Gospel after Jesus was crucified and
after they were flogged?  They wouldn't do it if they thought Jesus
was dead.  The only conclusion would have to be that the Apostles
had seen Jesus after He died on the cross; they saw Him in His
glorified and resurrected state.  Some try to say that Jesus survived
the crucifixion, but that is ludicrous.  I have an article from the
Journal of the American Medical Association that describes the
form of execution by the Romans called crucifixion.  No one survived
crucifixion.  Jesus died from hypovoletic shock and asphyxia,
suffocation, and the Romans made sure He was dead by stabbing Him in
the side.  The article says that the stab in the side was one Romans
were trained in.  The stab was used to kill.  The stab was in the
right side between the ribs and into the heart. This is historic.
Also, the Romans broke the legs of their victims to hurry up their
deaths.  When the legs were broken, the victim couldn't push up on
the nail in his feet to breathe.  They had to rely on their arms.
Breaking the legs would increase the suffocation factor leading to d
eath.  Jesus' legs weren't broken because He was already dead.  This
also fulfilled the prophecy:  "A bruised reed, He will not break."
So, since Jesus didn't survive the crucifixion, He couldn't have, as
some say, appeared to the Apostles saying that He had risen if He
hadn't.  Therefore, He appeared in His glorified state and risen state
....not bloody and bruised.  That is why the Apostles went
enthusiastically proclaiming the good news despite suffering and
even martyrdom and that is why, guided by the Holy Spirit, that the
first Christians founded the Church and that is why there are churches
today.  Also, since Jesus rose from the dead and confronted His
Apostles in His resurrected and glorified state, Jesus was who He said
He was.  One, He predicted His death on the cross. Two, He resurrected.
Three, He fulfilled prophecies.  These are just a few of the reasons
why I disagree when one says that Jesus is a dead man.  Ultimately,
there is faith.
 
Don't take my long reply wrong.  I know you didn't mean to be rude,
Hippo, and I forgive you.  The above is to further explain so that
you may understand.  I have files about evidence of the resurrection
if you are interested.

[Deletion]
 
>>
>>There is no other person except Jesus Christ who allows us to
>>identify with Him
>>and in doing so having a personal relationship with God.
>
>Muhammed? Moses? Even if you disagree with those I still believe it
>is possible
>to have a personal relationship with god without a middleman. Not
>that I have
>or want one...but that's a different subject altogether.
>
 
I do disagree.  I studied Islam in May Session, and Muhammad had
great ideas and even good teachings, but he didn't redeem me.  He
wasn't one with God.  He bridged no gap.  Moses, I feel somewhat the
same way about, but differing from Muhammad, I regard Moses as one
of God's prophets and I acknowledge that God used Moses to write part
of His Word.
 
>> There is no other
>>religion where someone innocent and perfect was sacrificed out of
>>love and
>>mercy to put to death the wicked way and to intercede on Judgement
>>Day.
>
>I believe that there is no religion where someone innocent and
>perfect was
>sacrificed etc. etc. But that is obviously where we disagree.
>
 
Yep.  We definitely disagree there.  As a Christian, I say the
following: Jesus was perfect and flawless and undeserving of death
especially on a cross--crucifixion is what mankind deserves, but
Christ went in our place, gave the option to mankind to choose Him
and in doing so find the only Way to God, the only Way to bridge
the gap of sin between man and God.

[Deletion]
 
Beacon Deacon